The Business Millennials Podcast

2.9 Is It A Systems Or Teams Problem

• Ashley Dreager • Season 2 • Episode 9

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In this episode of the Business Millennials Podcast, hosts Safa Harris and Ashley Dreager dive into the critical question of whether businesses need to hire new talent or implement better systems to overcome growth challenges. They explore the differences between systems and processes, discuss the complexities of choosing and implementing project management tools, and examine the financial considerations of scaling operations.

Key Takeaways:

  • The decision to hire or improve systems depends on your business's current state, goals, and financial situation
  • Systems involve multiple processes and often incorporate tech tools, while processes are specific steps within a system
  • Implementing the right project management tool can significantly improve efficiency, but choosing the best fit requires careful consideration
  • The cost of per-seat pricing for project management tools can impact business margins and should be factored into hiring decisions
  • Customized systems are generally more effective than one-size-fits-all solutions

Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction to the podcast and hosts
3:06 - Main discussion topic: Hiring vs implementing better systems
7:13 - Explanation of the difference between systems and processes
15:37 - Challenges of implementing partial system solutions
22:23 - Discussion on choosing the right project management tool for your business
29:14 - Consideration of financial aspects when implementing systems and hiring

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Intro:

Welcome to the business millennials podcast. This show brings you strategic insights through raw and unfiltered real world advice to accelerate your business growth for longterm success. I'm Safa Harris, and I'm Ashley Drager. We're the founders of scale and thrive co a full service marketing and business development firm, helping visionary companies scale sustainably. Expect us to have the uncomfortable conversations that no one else is having. We'll break down what it really takes to grow and scale your business beyond six Seven or even eight figures, as well as inspiring interviews with diverse leaders across marketing, product development, sales, and more. Be a fly on the wall. As we conduct strategy sessions with business owners, experiencing issues such as plateaued income, burnout, and generally dropping the ball, getting you the tools and resources to break through your own roadblocks, but also personal development methods to grow you as a balanced conscious leader amidst business growth. Let's jump into this week's episode.

Ashley Dreager:

So we came across a really interesting question. The, oh, that doesn't look good.

Safa Harris:

What?

Ashley Dreager:

You made a face. That's not a, didn't look happy.

Safa Harris:

but no, because I'm trying to figure out what the enterprise pricing is for ClickUp. And this is from, this is six months ago, this person answered this on Reddit. Um, and it says of 15 users, 35 per month.

Ashley Dreager:

Per user?

Safa Harris:

300. I think, I don't know if this person's right, because I feel like enterprise is supposed to be cheaper.

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah. That you're, I mean, well, they do make you get on a sales call. So

Safa Harris:

are paying per seat for Enterprise? 60 each here! What's the I thought Enterprise was supposed to give you a better Yeah, I'm being quoted 24 per seat for a hundred seats. Dude,

Ashley Dreager:

maybe, wow. I wonder what other benefits come up with the, you

Safa Harris:

But, hold on, there's one that I'm gonna look up the pricing for Teamwork. Okay, no, their pricing's the same as Clicca. I wonder what the pricing for Monday is. we're making a switch! Based on

Ashley Dreager:

know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. Well, cause we had come across a question that we thought was really interesting. and as an, an agency that offers operations support, I thought it was a really good question and one that maybe not a lot of clients, um, or other business owners think about on the regular. Because I think a lot of people. See hiring as the solution. Maybe unless somebody says the one, the one problem for them not reaching a certain milestone in business'cause they don't have a system that they need to go the other way with it.

Safa Harris:

Heh.

Ashley Dreager:

Uh, but the question is, do you need to hire a specific role or specialty or contractor? Do you need to hire or do you need better systems? Which is, which is holding business back.

Safa Harris:

Well, I think this question is the same question as like, well, what's my next strategy? Do I need the one strategy that so and so is telling me that's going to solve my XYZ problem? is it 3, other things along with that one thing, right? So, It depends on what your business is, what's going on, what your goals are, what you're trying to achieve, and what your current state looks like. And for us, we always start with like a current state assessment. Figuring out where the business is, where everything is going, what's happening, and then looking at the goals being like, okay, well then how do we bridge, this gap of what's going on here. So, I will always say that there will always be a need for some kind of systems as you are hiring, or even before you are hiring, even to hire. So even if the answer is like, yeah, you need to hire, but there has to be systems to be able to whoever you hire to be successful. So, there could be the scenario of everything is everywhere, you don't know what's going on, you don't have a clear view of your business, you, when you're working, you're just kind of working, there's nothing really managing your business for you, and in this day and age with techs and tools and automations and things like that, you can have those tools, if they are set up and done, in a way, kind of manage for you, you for you for your business and you might okay not hiring because you will set up that system and have that and that's in the perspective of like oh you're a solopreneur do I hire my first hire or not and you could very well put these systems in place, put in a project management tool, put in a CRM, add in automations, create processes and streamline things that be enough you to keep going and not have to hire because it's taken care of. And then once you get to that next step, then it's like, okay, It's very clear now what needs to be off boarded from XYZ person's plate to someone else. And this is what they will come in and do, and this is what will show that they're being successful, and this is the role that they will need to do, and this is what the business needs. Because the system's gonna show you. And make that very clear. And that is one not only going to allow you to hire the right person, for the right role, but that's also allowed that person that comes in to know exactly what they need to do, how they need to do it, to be successful for you to actually see that benefit.

Ashley Dreager:

Could we cover what is the difference and what is a system versus a process? Because I think that those terms get thrown around a lot in the online space. Um, and I know I've used them improperly before. Um, so, uh, yeah, maybe we could just cover that quickly.

Safa Harris:

systems is going to be a more than one thing. Alright, so when it's, it's going to be multiple parts and pieces coming together to a result.

Ashley Dreager:

would you say multiple processes coming together

Safa Harris:

yes,

Ashley Dreager:

not specifically? Okay.

Safa Harris:

specifically. a system is going to be I said multiple parts and pieces things coming together to make something happen and get a result and In the age that we are in, that usually involves some kind of tech system. So that's going to be an either email marketing tool or a project management tool, or a customer, like a relation, a CRM, like a customer relationship management tool you use multiple processes either before, within, And outside of to create a result. And those are all the multiple pieces that make up a system.

Ashley Dreager:

Mm.

Safa Harris:

A process is steps and things you take to make one piece of that system happen.

Ashley Dreager:

Okay. Mm-Hmm?

Safa Harris:

So

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah.

Safa Harris:

an automation within a project management tool is a process,

Ashley Dreager:

Okay. Mm-Hmm?

Safa Harris:

setup is. the system. So, and I think if you're doing systems work, this is what makes like the scope of work really, really hard and that people don't understand of how it is. But that it's like, I will do a system setup, but that system setup is going to be limited to up till The PM tool, or up till the CRM tool, or up to the email marketing tool, if it's going to be all the steps. going into the PM tool and then it needs to go into the CRM tool to finish off the process, that's cost a lot more when you start adding in more tools. It's one thing to have to do, like, the strategy of the system and, like, the process and all of that, and then actually building all those different pieces on for the whole system. Um, kind of where the scoping gets hard because people are like, Oh, well, we want the full system. Okay. Yeah, but there, there does need to be some boundaries of what we would be able to do and not do. And, Or we can leave that one part out and not do the whole thing and just do up to the PM tool or do up to the CRM and have some manual processes, but everybody always wants full on automation and everything. So that's kind of why it's really hard to be like, Oh, well, I'll do a system set up for you, or we're going to get the system set up done. It's hard to be like, oh, well, I'm going to solve this problem for you, but when you have a boundary on the scope, but then if you're like, oh,

Ashley Dreager:

Mm-Hmm.

Safa Harris:

your PM tool, people are like, well, that's not what I need, but it is going to solve a big chunk of your process issue that you could have a process. That is going to be manual and a heavy lift and all of those kinds of things. And you're not taking advantage of the tools available to you in this day and age to make it better and more streamlined for your business and have better operations. But like, again, especially if you're not doing it yourself and not putting all those pieces together, there is a semblance of like how big and wide and what the birth of the system set up is. Cause it's a can of worms. for example, how we do it, we kind of, we silo it based on the tool, right? So, it's like, oh, we will do a system setup. For the PM tool, and we will do the system set up for the CRM tool, or we will do the system set up for your email marketing and your funnel and things like that. But what sucks especially as like a systems person is when, okay, I'm doing a PM tool. And part of that is doing the client onboarding, but CRM tool isn't in place or that setup isn't something they want to pay for or isn't included or it can't be afforded in that moment where it's like okay well I can do this part of it and help with this part and kind of tell you the process before it or it's like this is where it's going to pick up to finish the onboarding but like the invoice and the contract or whatever is still going to be manual unless we do that first. Full setup. it's like a fragmented system at that point, but we still built out an onboarding process Yeah,

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah. That would be really hard to leave part of that alone. Knowing how much of an impact that one piece is going to have in the overall picture.

Safa Harris:

and like that's the very very hard part where you And like, so when we were doing our offer development on this stuff, like my first thing was like, I want to do full system set up. It's going to be 15, 000. And that's what I want it to be because I know that's what everybody actually needs and that's going to be the biggest impact, but like a 15, 000. Price point is only for a certain, very specific niche group of people and businesses that are able to do that. And like, yeah, other people can get benefits from the other parts and pieces, but they also do want all of those other things. So it's really, really hard because when you're saying you're doing a system setup, it's actually 15, 000, you're not getting all of everything. it's having those parameters on it. It's. It's really hard and it makes it even harder when people don't necessarily understand what a process is versus what a system is and how they work together and how you kind of do have to fragment like the scope on it based on the tool or tech because some people don't have the skill set to do all of them but even if you do, it can make for something huge. So I have a question for you

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah.

Safa Harris:

kind of having this, definition what a system versus what a process is and how that looks for a business. And then also having under, like kind of an understanding of our offering of how that happens and like kind of the sales conversation there and all of that. What does that make you feel or think about the conversation about systems?

Ashley Dreager:

There's like two ways that I want to answer this because I feel like the first, the first thing that comes to my mind is that they don't get the credit that they deserve. Or that they, they're very, um, undervalued and overlooked in the space. Um, but then it also makes me think about how all of the, the frustrations that I have with the online space when it comes to marketing terms and how marketing is viewed, it's like, if, People only felt like a social media strategy was their full marketing strategy. It's like, no, like I can't just do a social media strategy for you without looking at the rest of your marketing and your overall funnel, because that's just one piece of it. But social media is the, What everyone thinks is the bread and butter.

Safa Harris:

Exactly.

Ashley Dreager:

It's just like, no, this is just one carrot. You need the steak too. Like, to make the whole, the whole meal. So, I think, um,

Safa Harris:

And usually what happens with that is like, they'll bring you on for like Because usually this kind of brings back to the team hiring thing is people usually look for systems at a point where they have a team and it's not just like, what are two people? It's like five and they're like, this is a Like, I

Ashley Dreager:

my gosh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Ha ha ha. Yeah.

Safa Harris:

getting dropped and it's not constantly me checking in mental load like a signing task and checking in on status and making sure everybody knows what they're doing and it's getting done and the day to day isn't gonna getting dropped and These big projects aren't just lists in people's heads And we're just like having a month, multiple meetings, da, da, da, da, da. That is usually the case when people are like, we need systems. So like, okay, yeah. PM tool and it's. Like the aspect of like, okay, we will do onboarding, maybe one or two projects, then the workflow for one or two and like, that's kind of like the standard setup and usually what most businesses need, whatever it may be, um, and then if it's like, well, we have 10 offers. For like, if we hired someone to do our system set up, they would do like one tenth of our business based on that average scope of work.

Ashley Dreager:

Mm

Safa Harris:

but client onboarding is always, always a huge issue businesses because it involves different departments. And even if you don't have those different departments in your business yet, there's usually some kind of handoff point.

Ashley Dreager:

hmm.

Safa Harris:

a handoff point with whoever's doing the sales call, be it the CEO, sales team, whatever, someone in the business that's doing the onboarding part of them. And then to someone that's doing the delivery. sometimes like, yeah, there's overlaps in those roles and things like that. But at a minimum, even if it's like, Oh, I did the sales conversation, get them on board and then bring them back to me for delivery, that communication piece is a huge deal. And then, so if you know that client onboarding is something you want. To deal with, and there's no CRM already in place. will still have that kind of communication gap in between the sale is made, let's get them onboarded into our tools and things like that to be able to do the delivery without there being like an automation piece in between there. But if you're not doing a CRM build for them and you're only doing a PM tool build for them, and they're doing. Like their contract and invoice in like DocuSign and Stripe.

Ashley Dreager:

Mm hmm.

Safa Harris:

And then it's like, okay, well, then we're just going to create a task and onboarding to do the, all the other stuff. So that works. That's still a system, but say we were like, let's do Dubsado. then there will be an automation where there's automatically a clickup task that's assigned to someone, whatever. And then now you've eliminated two to three hours of work.

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah. Because even just going into it, into that platform, to pull the information, and the more platforms that you have to try to piece it together.

Safa Harris:

exactly and not just like the lost communication and say that you grow to a sales team of three, four or five people they are doing it at volume. This is, it becomes like a huge thing when you're at scale, um, of you have that much volume of leads and sales and things like that. And that communication breakdown. That could be so detrimental not only the client,, experience, also just being able to keep the wheels turning in your business.

Ashley Dreager:

Mm hmm.

Safa Harris:

So I guess that is to kind of say that, like, it's not just ever one piece of the system and you can make it work without all of it, like, especially if it's like a price constraint or whatever it is, but there is a benefit to having all of those things kind of coming together for the full system and the

Ashley Dreager:

Mm hmm.

Safa Harris:

And that's it. That is definitely what gets lost because when people don't understand what it is, and that you could just, can build you out a process, but with, with the tools that you have now, is it going to be the most effective, efficient streamline? No, am I going to make the recommendation for you? Hey, you need to add on these tech tools. I sure am,

Ashley Dreager:

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Safa Harris:

for you? Within the scope of one of the projects. Am I going to be able to give you the most impact or most efficiency in that one scope? No. So I think that's just something that's my pain point. Yeah.

Ashley Dreager:

I mean, to bring it back to what we were looking into at the very beginning, I Click up, for example, with guest view versus members. I mean, that's a huge price difference. You know, if you have 20 team members, and you're trying to make everybody work in guest view versus having them as member seats. I mean, that's, one, a very different budget line item that you're looking at. But two, Is that going to work for within the business? Is that going to be efficient? Is that going to meet the business needs? Or are you going to be putting in more time, effort, energy on the management side because of the limitations that this, this tool has with the way that it's being used?

Safa Harris:

the tool recommendation is always going to be dependent on the business and the business model. So this has always been like a huge pet peeve. Yeah. Of me when people are like, Oh, this is the tool you need. This is how we're going to set up your system. And it's kind of like a plug and play situation. And it's like. There's not like customization there and the people are like, Oh, well, I got my system set up and it like we still don't use it. It still doesn't work because it wasn't customized to you and a lot of service providers will only do the not customization one. It's more scalable. Um, but it too, is, is, That's their skillset. And there's nothing wrong with that because there's a good fit for that someplace, and it usually ends up being less expensive that way. But one business is ClickUp is going to be better for another business. Monday is going to be better. Another business. I can't like. Asana will be better. Asana and Trello and Notion are never better. If you're gonna use something, ClickUp, Monday, or like, Teamwork are gonna

Ashley Dreager:

I saw the pain in your face when you said Asana.

Safa Harris:

Because they just don't have, like, some of the tools don't have the functionality and the customization available for, like, different views for how different, different people think and need to use it, and all of those kinds of things. Um, so. So just the tools that have a little bit more of the customization are going to be better and how they're structured are going to be better, but some businesses, the process dictate what tool needs to be used. And like this business structure will tell you what tool is better for that business, and it's not going to be one is good for all. And that you might end up in a situation where you have a process or a system that's set up that's kind of like, Oh, this is how they do it. Or this is how my coach did it. Or this is how I know how to do it. And it may not work for you because it's not customized for you and your team structure and whatever it is. So that's just one aspect of it. That it's like, it's all going to depend, it customized is better and if it's your system is not working, it's not you. It's probably the system's not right and needs to be adjusted for your business structure

Ashley Dreager:

So, if anyone's been following the podcast for a while, are you shocked that we didn't just go with one answer is always the solution? Um, No. Um,

Safa Harris:

Um, the answer is, it's a bunch of processes and pieces of tech tools coming together to make stuff happen in your business and just the answer systems does not include everything. It kind of to go by what you're looking to make happen and that it might take multiple pieces of tools to make it happen and that's either if you're DIYing it, that's just more Stuff for you to build up. Um, and then if you're working with a system strategist, um, don't have the expectation that for a PM build, they can do all the best, make everything efficient and perfect and amazing in, in just a one tool set up. And then picking the right tools for you depends on the features they have and what you're looking to make happen. And one size does not fit all, even though the internet tells you. And if you have a large team, don't tell you that there is a cost per seat for these tools as well that you have to factor in and think about. And. Kind of what this is leading back to our original talking about what the pricing is for enterprise pricing and stuff for ClickUp is, um, This stuff is very, very expensive. It's going to eat into your margins and you're going to get to a point of, is this going to be something that one, can you afford, or is there a better way or a better solution or a better, you know, tool that works and does what you need it to do and the price point matches or can you survive without giving by say giving them guest access and click up versus member access and kind of weighing the pros and cons between the cost associated it with it and with the guest s just having them on guest and that To having an issue with your team management, their success in their role, um, efficiency, efficiency operations stuff. So by saving on not paying for their seats and having it a different way, what is that actually costing you? Um, it's something I don't think people really talk about. They're like, Oh, just put them in as guests. But talking about ClickUp particularly, they're not going to see. the structure and organization of your ClickUp setup. If they are just a guest, they're not going to see any distinctions. They're not going to see any views, filters, things like that. If you don't have them in as a member, which that might be fine if they're just doing one, they're just in for one project or if they're in for just one thing. But if they're doing lots of things in your business and they're doing, they're in lots of projects, Pieces or especially if in your agency, it's like you have multiple lists of the same thing They're not going to be able to see that distinction and i'm Honestly, i'm getting to a point with when i'm working with clients and click up in particularly in a build that we have going On right now. I'm, just not even recommending doing guests Because guests, I feel like, oh, it's for like a client to see a view or a dashboard or anything like that. Not for someone to be working in your business in. But it's expensive and all the tools, I just looked at the pricing for everything. They're all per member. Pricing is about the same.

Ashley Dreager:

Um, It

Safa Harris:

conversation was like, so what's a good solution on this? I don't know.

Ashley Dreager:

depends. You need to look at your strategy. Your business model.

Safa Harris:

financials

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah.

Safa Harris:

of what you can make work. how is there a way for you to, when you're doing your organizational development and figuring out who you're hiring and the roles and things like that, taking this into account of like, okay, well, can we. Maybe get someone that's a little bit more expensive and able to do more of this or have them for more hours, and maybe it's a full time employee, so there's less of them for less seats and things like

Ashley Dreager:

Mm hmm.

Safa Harris:

that all plays into your financial strategy. And. I think that's a big part of the original, original question of do you need systems or do you need to hire and going to be a point where you can hire to get tasks taken care of and done, but you might have been able to get away with adding in more tech. Pieces and tools and stuff in a system before you hired and then if you hire without having those systems tools and things like that, you one may not hire the right people for the role and you might hire based on like, Oh, I like that person. Let's figure it out. They can do some work because I need them. Things taken off my plate or you'll hire a person that's just not right because you don't know what needs to be done and what the expectations are and they're not able to be successful and things like that because you don't have like that p. m tool and things set up in place or you have a group of a whole group of people doing a whole bunch of work and they're everywhere and doing all the things and Somehow things are happening in your business and you're still like a chicken with your head cut off and you have no idea what's going on because you have no systems. So the answer is it depends.

Ashley Dreager:

It depends. I mean, that's the answer that we give a lot of times. A lot of the time. So,

Safa Harris:

Yeah.

Ashley Dreager:

if you guys need help with this, though, we'll do a free audit. And.

Safa Harris:

Yes.

Ashley Dreager:

Get you in the right direction, get you on a path towards the solution to the problems that you're experiencing. Um, cause if there was one solution.

Safa Harris:

we won't have to say it depends because we'll know

Ashley Dreager:

Yeah.

Safa Harris:

and we can

Ashley Dreager:

Hmm.

Safa Harris:

answer.

Ashley Dreager:

So I'll link that in the show notes for you guys.

Outro:

And that wraps up another episode of the business millennials podcast. We hope you found this conversation, thought provoking, inspirational, and helps you make a larger impact with your business. Growth is not just about profits or revenue. It's a journey of personal development, contribution, and bettering ourselves in society. Our challenge for you take at least one key lesson from our time together today that you can apply not just to your business. But your relationships, creative expression, wellbeing, and personal evolution to, we appreciate you tuning in. If you enjoyed this show, we invite you to pay it forward, share it with an entrepreneur, creative student, or community leader who needs an infusion of insight or inspiration right now. And make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. So you never miss a single episode. And if you like what you heard, leave us a five star review. See you next week.